RIP Dr. George Tiller
by Kelly
Abortion service provider Dr. George Tiller was shot in his church this recent Sunday by an anti-choice extremist. My heart and thoughts go out to his family and friends.
For more information, opinions and so forth, here are some related links:
George Tiller needs more than candlelight vigils
On Tiller, O’Reilly regrets nothing
Doctor’s Killer Is Not Alone in the Blame, Some Say
The “non-violent” anti-abortion activists
While I’m sorry that some nutcase killed Dr. Tiller, do you really think your diatribe adds anything to the ‘debate’? It’s obvious the guy was not really pro-life. That doesn’t negate the fact that abortion, the killing of an innocent person before he/she ever sees the light of day, the dismemberment of a human person inside its mother’s womb, is wrong.
You don’t want babies? Stop having sex. If having a child right now is inconvenient, don’t do anything to create one. In rare cases of rape/incest pregnancies, there are other ways-carry the baby to term and give it up for adoption. Life, especially innocent life, is precious in the eyes of God, whether or not you think so. It’s not the woman’s body, it’s God’s.
Again, I don’t wish evil on someone just because they do evil. It’s not right to do evil ‘for the greater good’.
I wanted to just say “fuck off” but since you were essentially civil & polite in your comment, I will return the favor:
Though it’s obvious if you peruse my site…
1. I don’t believe in a god or higher being
2. My body is my body
3. I am pro-choice
4. I won’t stop having sex
5. Dr. George Tiller was a good man
1. You’ll find out soon enough.
2. It’s not your body.
3. You’re pro-death
4. Suffer the consequences then.
5. Not denying that, but his actions sure suck.
Dr Tiller only preformed late term abortions that were medical necessities, for cases where the child would be born with such terrible defects that their quality of life would be non-existent and would often life very short pain-filled lives; or where the life of the mother was severely at risk becuase of the pregnancy and impending birth. He wasn’t some hackjob monster with a passion for killing “God’s Precious Gifts,” but rather a brave, compassionate Doctor performing medically necessary and justifiable procedures, that were approved by two separate physicians.
I assume that David is speaking of the Judeo-Christian diety when he speaks of “God” so we can begin speaking there. God in these teachings does not own any one, S/He granted free-will and dominion over the earth and themselves. While I am not comfortable enough with theology to go any further with this line of the debate, I think that you should refrain from bringing theology into what is primarily a secular argument. Abortion is a matter of law, where it must remain legal for any woman to truly be in control of their reproductive life. Moral aspects are best left to the individual.
Pro-life is the most loaded and bullshit term in existence.
Ian, what God creates we are not to destroy. God allows deformed, misformed babies for some purpose we are not aware of. So while I find what he did horrible because of that principle, it’s also horrible that someone destroyed him.
God did grant free will, but that doesn’t mean that we can do anything we want. Free will means that it’s ok to deny life to another human? I don’t think so.
Regarding leaving theology out of it, the problem is that you allowed evil into it (the bedroom) by allowing the law to dictate what is allowable. Women were always able to control their reproductive life, even before any advances in birth control.
Abortion because of convenience to the woman is immoral. If a baby is inconvenient, just don’t have sex when you’re fertile. Better yet, wait for the bond of marriage. At least, use birth control.
While I agree with the statement “at least use birth control” I think that may be where we stop agreeing with each other. Women have rarely throughout time been able to control their reproductive life, let alone any other aspect. I highly suggest you research the lot women have been dealt throughout history before you make such a statement.
So by your line of thinking, David, married women have an obligation to have children? Women who don’t want children should never get to experience the joys of sex? What’s the point of being pro-life if you don’t enjoy the life you lead?
Thank you Ian for pointing out what I thought was obvious — women have not had control over their bodies and their reproductive life for centuries.
“Women who don’t want children should never get to experience the joys of sex?”
Babies that result should continue to die so women and men alike can have sex without responsibility and willing to bear the consequences of that?
“What’s the point of being pro-life if you don’t enjoy the life you lead?”
What’s the point of arguing about people should have choices when some are deny the right to live? No life, and choices are worthless and nonexistent.
So babies should die so folks can enjoy the life they lead?
Thanks for pointing out what the pro-abortion is all about- destroying another (baby’s) body in order to have sex and enjoy life without accepting responsibility and consequences for one’s actions.
Redefine the issue all you want, but it is not really about control over your body, but over another (the baby’s). No parent should have that absolute right over that of their child, whether before or after birth (to kill the child so the parent can enjoy life and have more sex).
It is not male versus female.
It is adults versus babies and parents versus children.
And what you advocate is the ultimate form of child abuse ever. Child sacrifice, child torture, child abuse, and child murder all rolled into one. That is what defined abortion.
It is barbaric.
You want to argue it is about women’s right. Tell that to the female babies aborted in countries like China.
Punisher — I DON’T BELIEVE ABORTION IS KILLING A SENTIENT BEING. END OF STORY.
So Dollface, what if I don’t believe that you are a sentient being? Does that give me the right to kill you? Despite whatever I might believe, you as an entity have a right to life. So does that mass of tissue inside the mother. Medical texts all teach that life begins at conception. So regardless of what you believe, what’s true is that it is a life. And we are not supposed to put an end to innocent life. END OF STORY.
David, I don’t appreciate your juvenile tactics. Furthermore, it is entirely possible to prove that I am a sentient being. A fetus, however, is a different story.
This little “debate” is going nowhere.
So you don’t appreciate me using your very own logic? I can prove by medical science that a fetus is a human. The point is that it’s true, whether you believe it or not. The fact that you’re sentient is true whether I believe it or not. So what you or I believe does not change the fact. And this is my point. And murder is murder, regardless of where it takes place.
David
That is a straw man if I ever saw one. A fetus is a human, it is a living cluster of cells, but it is also a non-thinking, non-functioning human that lives at the whims of the host. A fetus is not a citizen, it is not a member of the human race yet, as it has not been born, therefore as an unborn future member of the race it holds no rights that supersede the right of choice and self-governance of the mother.
This is exactly why groups like Planned Parenthood exist, so that we can educate people on how to effectively use birth control to prevent unwanted pregnancy. The strange thing is, anti-choice groups also want abstinence education to go along with their perfect world of sparkling fetuses. The human race enjoys having sex, and people are going to fuck because of that… which is why pro-choicers typically support both a woman’s right to choose and better sex-education in schools. We don’t live in a perfect world.
Also, considering that the mother is the one responsible for carrying the child to term for 9 months in your abortion-free world, this does fall largely along lines of gender. That is the problem with “pro-lifers.” They really only think there is one “life” involved in the picture — the mother is just a vessel that supports that life, not a breathing, thinking being herself. (And, as Ian already mentioned, the fetus really doesn’t do any of those things).
Oh, and the female babies aborted in China? That’s called femicide. It’s the result of a culture devaluing women so much that they are logically thrown away before they can exist in a male-dominated world. It happens less in cultures where women are regarded as being in control of their own bodies and having the autonomy and consciousness to master their own lives. China may allow abortion, but it doesn’t do so on the premise that women deserve their autonomy. It does so because there’s a 2,000 year old patriarchal history that supports it.
Femicide has also been happening long before medically-safe abortion clinics started appearing too. Remember what I said about this not being a perfect world? There’s a reason they called them “coat hangers” back in the 19th century. Women are going to make the choice to have abortions regardless of whatever government or fundamentalist religious groups try to exercise over them. Your solution: let the murderous bitches die. Ours: recognize women have lives of their own, the world isn’t perfect, life doesn’t start at conception otherwise every frigg’n sperm cell and egg would be counted in the US census, and create a society where babies born are wanted and well cared for through planned pregnancy, birth control, and safe, clean, healthy abortions.
Also, can I say how heartbreaking it is that a thread dedicated in honor of a man who was murdered recently was de-railed by others’ insistence on defending their viewpoint? This was not the time or place.
Thank you Dolly for pointing that last part out, especially. Well-reasoned comment all around!
First I want to say, welcome back Dolly. I was rather sad to see you site wasn’t around anymore. Then thank you for that elegant and well placed addition to the discussion. I don’t think anyone can say it better.
So when are you going to point out that the murderer of Dr. Tiller had no connection with any main stream anti-abortion group?
Ian if a fetus is human as you agree, then to kill it is murder.
Dolly, as against contraception as I am, here, it’s a truly private matter. But if Planned Parenthood was really about contraception, alone, most people wouldn’t have a problem with Planned Parenthood. If Planned Parenthood offered abortion as a choice alongside of abortion alternatives, there wouldn’t be so much outcry (even from those of us who are against all abortion). What I want to know is how can you support PP’s racism, or their willingness to bend the law? Lawsuits have been filed against Planned Parenthood across the country for failing to report child abuse and statutory rape, and in undercover operations, someone calling Planned Parenthood clinics claiming to be 13 years old and a victim of sexual assault, Planned Parenthood agreed that a crime had been committed and agreed to conceal it.
At the very least, Planned Parenthood needs to be reigned in and de-clawed.
No David, I don’t think I do agree with you. It is a NON-THINKING, NON-FUNCTIONING parasitic form of a human being. It is not something with rights and privileges.
Ian, if it’s human, it has rights and privileges. Whether you think so or not. Whether you choose to take them away or not. You are playing God, deciding who has rights. It’s not your call, really.
http://open.salon.com/blog/jodi_kasten/2008/09/02/i_am_not_pro-death_adventures_of_a_gen-x_uterus
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