Why I Became a Feminist, Pt. 2
by Kelly
By becoming a feminist, I found my voice.
Why am I a feminist?
It’s a dirty word these days. When you identify as feminist, people perceive you a certain way. Instead of others understanding that I am passionate about women’s rights, I’ve received various responses ranging from “Why are you so worked up over this? You can vote and you have the same opportunities as men in this country” to “Women are equal now, I don’t see the need for feminism.” Hey, I’m the first to admit that women in the United States are better off than women in say, Afghanistan, where several girls recently got acid thrown in their faces for attending school. Yes, I can vote and I do have many opportunities in life. Yet, there is still so much work to be done to improve the lives of women in this country and in others.
When I was little, no matter how progressive and open-minded my parents were, I still saw the world as white-washed. I had no idea the Gulf War was going on, and when Princess Diana died, I was shocked. That memory stands out to me as the first time I really understood that life isn’t always pretty. When 9/11 occurred, my entire world was shaken up. I was only thirteen at the time, and when I watched a man hurtle himself dozens of stories to the ground all I could do was cry and look at my mother helplessly. I realized that no one has all the answers.
Around this time I was a complete tomboy. I shunned the frilly dresses of my early childhood and wrote essays about how much boys “suck.” I scorned the notion of dieting and thought to myself that I would never succumb to such silly ideas. The idea that skinny women depicted in magazines negatively affect women’s body image was laughable to me.
So, imagine my dismay several years later, when I looked at myself in a mirror and thought, “My thighs are too big. I wish I was taller. I hate myself.” Where were these thoughts coming from? How had I been sucked in by society’s standards of beauty when I’d been ignoring them all along? I’d been saturated by unattainable (read: photo-shopped) images of beauty just like the rest of my generation, and I was finally aware of how inadequate I felt.
I felt pretty betrayed. How come my mother and father never told me that women are so thoroughly objectified? I started thinking that this was some secret that I’d stumbled upon, and my parents just didn’t know to warn me. Of course, now I realize we’re all in on the secret – but not everyone thinks it’s a problem. To a certain extent, we all accept how society is. Boys like cars and trucks and girls like Barbies and make-up. A woman’s looks are more important than her brains or personality. Men are assertive and ambitious, but the same qualities in a woman are perceived as abrasive and conniving.
Think I’m making this up? Here are a few quotes from the (much-loved) men in my life:
My father: “You can’t be a pallbearer for your grandmother’s funeral, you’re not strong enough.” (I insisted and we found out quickly that my “lack of strength” wasn’t a problem).
My uncle to his daughter: “I’d rather you’d be gay than fat. But really, I hope you’re neither.” (Two years since writing this post, my cousin came out and he was more than supportive.)
My boyfriend: “Women’s bodies are just more beautiful than men’s are.” (Context: this was said in the middle of a conversation of why women are more objectified than men, and why half-naked images of women are far more pervasive in television, ads, and so on).
Here are my responses, some of which I said to them, some of which they would just never understand:
To my father: “This is completely unfair. Just because pallbearers are typically male, the coffin will not be too heavy for me to help carry. This means so much to me and I can’t stand that you are refusing to let me do something like this merely because I’m female.”
To my uncle: “Your daughter is beautiful, intelligent, and charming. I know that you love her, but you shouldn’t base that love on sexual orientation and body weight.”
To my boyfriend: “I see that women are beautiful, but I am a bisexual woman who happens to find the male body to be equally exciting and arousing. Don’t I deserve to see images of attractive men too? Furthermore, are you saying all women are beautiful or just the skinny, tanned ones on television? Should the price of our beauty be objectification and hyper-sexuality?”
These are three men that I trust and love. It’s just so warped that they can be so blind. Through their own male privilege, they cannot comprehend the effect their words have on the women they love, nor do they realize that this is just a microcosm of the problems women face today. I must also admit that even though what they said may have hurt me or women close to me, they are products of society. The root of the problem is society. It’s the men who perpetrate violence against women. It’s the countries who deny women the right to an education or equal rights. It’s the governments who oppress half of their population based on gender.
This is why I’m a feminist. This is why the only thing that keeps me sane sometimes is reading Elizabeth Wurtzel on a rainy day, and feeling like she’s reading my mind and putting it to paper. This is why I write this blog and read others. I can’t live in this society any more the way it is, but it’s not like I can move to another country and make it all better. I am female no matter where I go. No matter how I dress or who I date. The world treats me and the other 3 billion women inhabiting this planet as the inferior sex.
That’s fucked up.
There is hope, though. By becoming a feminist, I found my voice. I discovered an entire canon of female writers who argue passionately for the feminist cause. Feminist thinkers such as Catherine A. MacKinnon have become women I look up to. Before I discovered feminism, I was raised to think women can be anything and do everything. After feminism, I realized that women should be able to be anything and to do everything, and when they are denied the right to self-determination and freedom from discrimination, someone has to speak out on their behalf. As a marginalized group (the largest in the world), women are not afforded the same opportunities as men. That has to change. We can make that change.
I know that sometimes it seems like all feminists do is bitch and moan about how unfair living in a patriarchy is. To a certain extent, yes, I do complain. However, I do believe there is a time and place to speak out for the feminist cause. When someone makes a misogynist joke, you don’t have to stay silent. When someone makes a disparaging comment about a woman’s appearance, you don’t have to pretend you didn’t hear. Why should we stay silent when we have been silenced for centuries? Even if you don’t call yourself a feminist, if you believe women deserve equal rights, equal opportunity, the right to self-determination and freedom from discrimination, guess what? You’re a feminist. So why deny that fact? Is it because feminists are “angry”, “stubborn”, and “aggressive”? Or is it because you know that feminists are actually passionate, opinionated and outspoken, but because of their gender are labeled “angry”, “stubborn”, and so on?
I’m a feminist and I’m not afraid to stand up for what I believe in. If that makes me “angry,” “emotional,” or “man-hating,” then so be it. That’s the least of my problems.
So why am I a feminist? Because I see hope in the feminist cause. Because I’m frustrated by society’s values. Because, at the end of the day, I feel that I can make a difference in the world if I am true to myself and my beliefs. I will not be a bystander in life, and I urge you to find your voice as well.
- Kelly
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The “Why I Became a Feminist” series is open to anyone who identifies as feminist and wants to share their story. Please email me at rottenlittlegirls @ gmail.com and I will consider publishing your piece in this series. I’d love to have a broad range of voices and experiences.
Part 1 of the series.
I wouldnt call myself a feminist but after reading this article i realize that i agree with many of the same issues. I hate that women are objectified in the media. Men think its okay to make comments like ” I would rather my daughter be gay than fat” These comments are totally unacceptable. So many women have eating disorders because of the way men view women.
People treat the word “feminism” like a dirty word. All though like i said i have never called myself a feminist but I have always noticed the negative conatation of the word feminism. We have made many strides as women and are light years ahead of women in third world countries. Yes we can vote and yes there are more women in college now then there have ever been. The objectification of women seems to negate the strides that women have made.
Not to blame all the negative thoughts about women on men or the media. I believe that women are partially to blame for the situation. Women allow themselves to be objectified by their choice of clothing or other actions. Men think that it is ok to treat women the way they do because certain women portray certain images that not all women may agree with and therefore give men the idea that all women should be like these skinny tan women that flaunt there bodies are the ideal image that all women should portray.
If some women would clean up there image then the overall image of women would improve. All the strides that women have made in this country should not be lessened due to the fact that some women choose to misuse the freedoms that we have gained in such a negative manner.
First off, bravo dollface! I’m so glad you finally posted this. I particularly liked the bit where you quote your father, your uncle, and your brother. It’s not uncommon at all for women to hear these kinds of things in their families–how often does male privilege get in the way of stronger, deeper relationships? It seems you and I also had a similar push toward feminism due to body-related issues. I wonder if that’s a common thread among western feminists living in capitalist societies where marketing women’s bodies has become the norm? And the bolded part at the beginning… about the bargain we all silently buy into? Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant. You command awe and respect from me, as always. :)
I want to make a quick aside to Amber… why do you think women are prompted to dress like that though? I’m not saying they don’t choose to put the clothes on (or, in this case, leave them off), but there is a cultural factor involved here. So many women are raised to believe this is how they will be loved and valued. Not everybody learns WST 101. So, is it surprising then that this is how many women try and find love & acceptance? And who is worse — the women that dress that way or the guys that are willing to buy and feed the market that encourages that kind of objectification?
That said, I find it odd that you agree with dollface on so many things and yet don’t identify as a feminist. Is what’s holding you back this idea that women are to blame for their own oppression?
It angers me when people treat the word feminist as a dirty word as well– naturally, its ALL the men in my life who do that. AND, one of my closest girlfriends. They think it’s “stupid” and that we “whine about a lot of petty problems”.
I always want to fight back, but I’m to passive. As a feminist, this is my downfall, and I need to work up the courage to voice my beliefs and say to people “feminism is NOT stupid (and we don’t whine about petty problems)”.
I’m tired of staying silent!
Don’t you just love our family? :D Goes to show you how a grandpa like ours has an influence on his children haha
<3 love you!
I agree with so much that doll face has to say but I have never thought to label myself a feminist. I dont think that women are to blame for their own oppression. I completely agree that culture does determine how women dress and act. I just think that it is so sad that women are made to feel that they have to dress provatively to be loved or atleast but found appealing to men.
I think that men and the media that portay women as sex objects are completely to blame for the way that many women choose to dress. The sexy and skinny celebrities that we see on TV encourage women to go on crash diets and even develop eating disorders. You see so many women in skimpy clothing that it is hard for most girls not to want to fit in.
It is sad that our ancestors fought for respect and equality and some women are eagerly tearing it down by folding under the pressure of the media and men who encourage this degrading of women. I think that it is a vicious cycle that might be never ending. Men expect women to uphold a certain image and women on the other hand strive to please men in exchange for love and affection. I think that the pressure that men put on women is just unbearable for most and it is easy to fold under the pressure. As a woman myself i understand how hard it is to maintain your own self and how easy it is to get caught up in all the things that our culture expects from women.
I wonder after all this if i should label my self a feminist.
I’m what I refer to as an Independent Feminist. I do believe in equal rights for women. I do think that we deserve the same consideration, the same pay. I’m not gender-blind because I do think that women do have different functions and abilities than men do (hey, somebody’s gotta have babies!), but that, all other things being equal, there’s no reason to differentiate.
But Feminists (capital F) became a little too identified with “man hater,” which is really not at all what true feminism is about. Women making “dumb guy” jokes are as much to blame as men who assume we’re stupid because we have boobs. Or that said boobs automatically mean that we LIKE to clean house because, duh, isn’t that what women do?
Being a SAHM, however, puts me at odds with many of my feminist counterparts. The very fact that I don’t work outside my home, they feel, somehow lets down “our side.” Old guard Feminism (again with the capital F) often finds the idea of raising your own kids by choice insulting, which is why I rarely speak up about this. After all, they fought so I could NOT be tied down at home. Which is to say, that since I *don’t* feel tied down at home because, for all their work I DO have a choice and this is the one I made, I must not be a “good” or “real” feminist. Yeah. I am. And I give thanks for their battle so I could make my own choices, whether or not they fit the popular feminist mold.
Feminists have bulging tendons in their necks?
Try finding a better picture, toots.
Wow, I’ll bet you’re loads of fun at family gatherings. I hope your father, your uncle, and your boyfriend all tell you to get over yourself and lighten up.
I’ll reply to all the wonderful & reasonable comments soon, but a quick note to “Some Guy”:
I was going to delete your comments, since the second one is a personal attack, but then I thought, nothing makes my argument more legitimate than your asshole remarks. Thanks for proving me right, and taking the time to read my post.
P.S. Ashley Judd’s neck looks fine to me.
lmfaoooooo!!! Right on!
BF: “Women’s bodies are just more beautiful than men’s are.”
YOU: “I see that women are beautiful, but I am a straight woman who happens to find the male body to be exciting and arousing. Don’t I deserve to see images of attractive men too? Furthermore, are you saying all women are beautiful or just the skinny, tanned ones on television?”
That’s one of the issues I see with “feminists”, you can’t accept a mans answer unless it fits into how you think we should answer. I see nothing wrong with the boyfriends statement, but you had to twist it so it seemed like he was bashing women unless they are a certain type. Also, the media produces what sells. Maybe you should ask other women why they continue to buy these products that portray women in a certain way if they are so dissatisfied with the negative image that results from them. Did you even bother to ask him what kind of women he likes, or did you just assume that he meant skinny model-types? I enjoy all kinds of women, and honestly, if you were to ask questions instead of jump down his throat you might find that men like the general shape, presentation, and attitude of a certain type of women. Every man is different, and it usually never just breaks down to her being “skinny and tan”.
Also, do you let men hold the door open, pick up the tab, and say nice things to you just because? If you do, this is a form of chivalry, something feminists are very much against.
Really what you’re looking for is equal rights, not feminism. Remember that gays, people of color, people of religion, atheists, and many other groups face just as much discrimination as a woman does in this day and age. Your time would be better applied fighting for the rights of everyone.
@ Bo — You make a good point — from the quote I gave it looks like I’m slightly twisting my boyfriend’s words. I should have mentioned that he said that statement during a conversation about why women are more objectified than men. Therefore, in that context, I think my reaction is perfectly reasonable. I will go and edit my post to reflect that.
As for your point about chivalry, I accept chivalry from men and women, and am also known to hold open doors for people as well. Chivalry is just good manners.
Finally, I do believe in human rights across the board, and if you look at other posts, you’ll see I’m concerned with other important issues beyond feminism. However, this I can’t cover everything in one post and I think feminism is still an important cause. If you think my time would be better applied fighting for the rights of everyone, then why don’t you do the same?
Yes, being upset at the chauvinism is all fine and good, but you’ve got to realize that you’re fighting against the tide.
The big dirty little secret of humanity that nobody wants to acknowledge is that we are the product of evolution.
Do some research into ape colonies. THAT is where we come from. THAT took millions of years to evolve. And THAT is what set the patterns for our behavior in so many ways.
You may not realize this as a woman, but men are simply not capable of looking at a woman without judging her looks. It’s not possible to think otherwise, because it is that very base thought process that has allowed our species to survive for so long against all the other competing life forms on this planet.
A woman is judged as a viable mate based on her figure: small waist, large hips, large breasts (up to a point). This is the ubiquitous “hourglass” figure, and it is what is genetically programmed into the man’s brain as the thing to seek in a female.
Why? Because large hips are more likely to birth successfully. Large breasts are more likely to produce enough milk for the child to survive.
And that’s ALL that evolution is interested in: survival of the species.
And what is the woman genetically disposed to look for in a man? Power.
A powerful man will have a greater share of the resources. Greater resources increase survival probability of their offspring.
Men crave power too, because it increases their share of the resources, allowing them to attract a better mate, and to protect the children better.
A male has an innate drive to impregnate as many females as he can. This propagates his genetic code further and increases survival potential of that code. Once again, an evolved trait to increase survivability.
The female, on the other hand, can only carry one child per year. She needs to stay put because moving around with very young children reduces their survival potential.
She needs a stable and clean environment, as that further increases survivability.
Ever wonder why women tend to care more about cleanliness and stability (aka commitment) than men? Well now you know.
And so here we are in the 21st century, a colony of apes living the illusion of an enlightened species, trying desperately to ignore the elephant in the room that is our evolved instincts which are now proving to be a liability for so many in this new environment we find ourselves in.
Or is it?
The powerful men still get the beautiful women and the lion’s share of the resources. And women still try to match up to the most beautiful in their midst, which, unfortunately, is now not even real thanks to photoshop.
So what do you do? Try to change peoples minds? You can get equality because that’s a social thing. However, you won’t get a change of attitudes towards women (or men for that matter) in terms of sexuality because that is ingrained in us as a species, and it’ll take thousands of generations to evolve away from that, provided such a change increases the survivability of the species.
So yes, men do look at you and judge you based on your looks. And what’s more, they will continue to do so for at least the next 100,000 years unless we manage to turn that genetic code off through genetic manipulation. Regardless, you will not see that change in your peers, and nor will I.
OMG and this is why I hate evolutionary scientists. They spin every goddamn thing in our world to fit their SOCIALLY constructed reality. Read some Donna Haraway, please!
First off, what about gay men? Are they just genetic freaks of nature for not wanting to look at women *that way?* And lesbian women? Are they seeking powerful men to sustain them? I don’t think so. But, according to you, these people are just evolutionary failures. *rolls eyes*
Second off, people did NOT descend from apes. This is so commonly misconstrued from Darwin’s theory of evolution. We have a common ancestry with apes; that doesn’t mean we are direct descendants from them.
Third, isn’t it funny how when the feminist movement rolled around and increased women’s labor force participation to about 70% in the 1980s (from aobut 20% in the 1930s) women’s need for powerful men with resources to support them declined substantially? The reality is that many more women today are choosing to be single and are having sex just as much as guys.
Fourth, your idea about the perfect “fertile” body for a woman is obviously a western one. In other cultures (African cultures, for instance), apple and pear shapes have been widely praised for their fertility benefits. The hourglass shape is mostly European in terms of its fertility value, and the contemporary American view of the woman’s body is no longer a reflection of reality but a construction of men’s imaginations. Was part of evolution for the most desirable women’s bodies to be made of plastic?
Lol, and I love this idea that because women carry children for 9 months in their bellies, it makes sense that they stay in the home and clean. Has it ever crossed your mind that just as logically women might sleep around like crazy until they get pregnant? That they might STILL sleep around while pregnant? They could just be as sex-driven as men, but for different “evolutionary” reasons. (Frankly, I think as humans are one of the few species that has sex for pleasure, all this justification of male sexual prowess through “biological hardwiring” is ridiculous)
And the farther you get into this evolutionary argument, that men just can’t HELP but look at women the way they do, the closer you get to a justification for rape. Because if men can’t “control” themselves, then the assault on women’s bodies is perfectly natural and okay. In a conscious, thinking world however, I think it’s pretty obvious this is NOT okay.
The fact of the matter is nobody knows for certain how society ended up the way it is today. But justifying all the injustice done toward women on the world based on the argument that “evolution deemed it so” is so overgeneralizing it’s ridiculous.
And if you think women are defined so much by their bodies and how they look, why are you even bothering to have a discussion with one? Is this your way of stepping down and trying to explain things to the lowly woman brains? How thoughtful of you. But what you are completely ignoring is what dollface is telling you based on her experience — that being looked at purely as an object is degrading, deHUMANizing, and frankly, a fucking big turn-off. You seriously need to extend your perspective.
@ Amber – Thanks for the comments, I think you’re onto something here. It’s true that objectification of women in our society is a vicious cycle, and perhaps you are a feminist!
@ Dollyann — Thank you for your thoughtful comments as always.
@ Jackie – That’s awesome! I know I was tired of staying silent, which is one of the reasons I started this blog.
@ Cousin – Our family rocks.
@ Sonya – I agree with you, the goal of the women’s liberation movement was to give women more choices, and I respect yours to be a SAHM.
I’m a man, born in 1972, who was raised by my mother, a proud feminist. “Guns as toys” were not allowed in my life until I was 10; I was not allowed to watch ‘Star Trek’ until middle school because it was “too violent”. I love ALL WOMEN. Since I have reached dating age, I have had exactly ONE one night stand. Physical love, to me, is precious, and while I MAY think of sex every 1.4 seconds, I will not jump into bed with just ANY willing female.
SO, I’m on the side of the feminists. LISTEN, I’M A MAN. I LOVE FOOTBALL. FOOTBALL, RED MEAT, AND BREASTS. Yaaaaarrrrrrrgh. But that doesn’t mean I expect my girlfriend to barbecue me some brats while she flashes her tits and I watch the big game without her. What fun is that?!?! (aside from the bare breasts)
I’M gonna barbecue for us, and grab her a beer when I run to the kitchen, and we’ll high-five each other when OUR team scores. And I’ll do the dishes. What I’m saying is, THIS man doesn’t expect anything from his woman except her own personality, a good sense of humor, some forgiveness for my chronic stupidity, and a few shared interests (football being the example of this post, but that’s not a deal-breaker, as long as she understands MY irrational love of sports).
I guess my point is this:
From a (somewhat) enlightened male perspective, BE feminist. MEANING: be yourself. DON’T let society’s views color your image of yourself. (LISTEN: stop thinking of yourselves as overweight, or that your boobs are small. Us guys really don’t care about the ‘Cosmo’ view – most of us like you physically as you naturally are [i.e. NOT a string bean] and, also, we just like boobies. Really we do. Seriously, that’s part of the male secret, pathetic as it may be. Boobies. All kinds. Yes, please. Big, small, whatever. If you like us, well… Boobies!!!!)
ANYWAY, my main point is, be whoever you are.
Society’s rules matter much less than you think they do…
ONE MORE POINT…..
You know that nice, kinda nerdy guy? Keeps to himself? You see him all the time, he’s TOTALLY nice to you, ALWAYS a gentleman, you have some shared interests, you think he’s kinda cute, he SEEMS to like you, but he just doesn’t seem to have the, well, BALLS to ask you out?
So you go out with Mr. Confident “What’s your number, boo” instead…
He sucks. Likes your “hot body”, calls you “Chrissy” all night. That’s not your name. You told him this five times in the car on the way over.
SO, next time, you go out with Mr. Cocky & Cute “I met him at the club, he’s so sure of himself!!!!!”
He asks you for “road head” on the way to your first date.
Seriously. ‘Pervis McNerderson’ would have taken you out for a classy date.
I’ve worked as a bartender for years now. Whatever that says about me, I have witnessed SO MANY WOMEN turn down good, smart, but ‘shy’ men in favor of overbearing douchebags.
My point? STOP DATING MISOGYNISTS. DON’T REWARD DOUCHEBAG BEHAVIOUR.
Maybe ask out that cute nerd who you KNOW will respect you, instead of writing him off (because he “doesn’t have the balls to ask you out.” You’re a FEMINIST and you’re saying THAT?!?!?!)
I mean, this goes both ways. Seriously, is the Sadie Hawkins dance only once a year? And only when you’re 16? Grow some ‘balls’ yourselves… :-D
@ Mustardman — Hahaha…rock on. Hilarious (but thoughtful) comments.
> First off, what about gay men? Are they just genetic freaks of nature for not wanting to look at women *that way?*
I was talking about the general case. Of course there is some genetic diversity, which is why we have gay men. You DO agree that homosexuality is a genetic trait rather than leaned behavior, right? Because you can’t have it both ways.
And what’s all this about “freaks” anyway? That’s way out from left field.
> And lesbian women? Are they seeking powerful men to sustain them?
Nope.
> But, according to you, these people are just evolutionary failures. *rolls eyes*
Whoa! Exactly WHERE did I even mention evolutionary failure? Do you even know what evolutionary failure means?
> Second off, people did NOT descend from apes.
Of course they didn’t! But humans and apes share a LOT of behavioral commonality.
> Third, isn’t it funny how when the feminist movement rolled around and increased women’s labor force participation to about 70% in the 1980s
Yes, and this is a GOOD thing.
> women’s need for powerful men with resources to support them declined substantially?
You misunderstand me. This is what women tend to subconsciously look for in a man, because it is what women USED TO NEED in a man. The reality today is different, but evolution is SLOW. And once again, this is the general case.
> The reality is that many more women today are choosing to be single and are having sex just as much as guys.
Which is absolutely awesome! It’s wonderful to see our society throwing off the shackles of religious dogma that enslaved us all in sexual guilt, and women in particular as a “lesser” being.
> The hourglass shape is mostly European in terms of its fertility value
Yes, I’d always wondered about the waist size thing. I just did a little more research and it would seem that preferred waist size is a reflection of the resourcefulness of the average woman.
But then again, we come to renaissance paintings depicting pear-shaped women, so it becomes a bit inconclusive…
Regardless, large hips are universally regarded as desirable, as is a “fullness” of the buttocks.
> the contemporary American view of the woman’s body is no longer a reflection of reality
Isn’t that what I just said? The media’s depiction of the ideal woman and the ideal man is a fantasy.
> and I love this idea that because women carry children for 9 months in their bellies, it makes sense that they stay in the home and clean.
Huh? Who said anything about them staying home and cleaning? Our modern world is a clean and safe environment. There’s no need for women to stay home anymore, nor has there been for at least 5000 years.
The point I’m trying to make is that, until modern society developed, a female who became pregnant HAD to stay put, and NEEDED a clean and safe environment or else she and her offspring had a MUCH higher chance of dying. That WAS the reality then, and it’s what helped shape her attitude towards stability and cleanliness.
> Has it ever crossed your mind that just as logically women might sleep around like crazy until they get pregnant?
Yes. But unfortunately not in a Christian (or Muslim) dominated society. Religion has done more to destroy our sexuality than any other force on Earth.
> That they might STILL sleep around while pregnant?
Yes. Though there will come a point in the pregnancy where it’s no longer possible without extreme discomfort.
> They could just be as sex-driven as men, but for different “evolutionary” reasons.
YES! Exactly! Both men and women are sexual creatures. That’s part of the point I’ve been trying to make!
> Frankly, I think as humans are one of the few species that has sex for pleasure, all this justification of male sexual prowess through “biological hardwiring” is ridiculous
The only reason we do it for pleasure is because we are the only ones intelligent enough to be able to plan sufficiently for the future. All of our relatives in the animal kingdom have just as much sexual appetite. The difference is that we can turn it into a game.
> all this justification of male sexual prowess through “biological hardwiring” is ridiculous
I’m not really sure what you mean by “sexual prowess”, but the sexual appetite is hardwired into ALL of us.
> And the farther you get into this evolutionary argument, that men just can’t HELP but look at women the way they do, the closer you get to a justification for rape.
Yes, unfortunately you get to this point when people start looking for excuses.
One cannot be condemned for feeling a certain way, but one can MOST CERTAINLY be condemned for their actions. We are intelligent beings, after all.
Men will always unconsciously judge women by their looks. That is something that will not change no matter how much social conditioning they go through. At best you will have men giving furtive glances at the women around them.
Rape is not something uncontrollable, nor has it ever been, nor will it ever be. And it is not acceptable, not will it ever be again I hope.
> The fact of the matter is nobody knows for certain how society ended up the way it is today.
Correct.
> But justifying all the injustice done toward women on the world based on the argument that “evolution deemed it so” is so overgeneralizing it’s ridiculous.
I couldn’t agree more.
> And if you think women are defined so much by their bodies and how they look, why are you even bothering to have a discussion with one?
Is not discussion what we humans do in order to share ideas?
And you are misunderstanding me. I’m saying that this is what happens unconsciously. As humans, we of course have a large amount of control over many of these urges, though going against them can prove to be quite a struggle.
> Is this your way of stepping down and trying to explain things to the lowly woman brains?
Ok, I’m sensing some hatred now.
> that being looked at purely as an object is degrading, deHUMANizing, and frankly, a fucking big turn-off.
Of course it is! I don’t approve of what those men said (with the exception of her boyfriend’s stated preference of the female body).
Nevertheless, you will be judged as a potential sexual mate by your looks and very little else.
It’s not fair, but then again evolution was never about fair.
> I’ve worked as a bartender for years now. Whatever that says about me, I have witnessed SO MANY WOMEN turn down good, smart, but ’shy’ men in favor of overbearing douchebags.
Because those overbearing douchebags give off an air of confidence and power. And women tend to find that attractive in a sexual mate.
Oh hang on, I think there’s another potential point of misunderstanding:
> And if you think women are defined so much by their bodies and how they look, why are you even bothering to have a discussion with one?
Women are judged SEXUALLY by their looks. Their looks have no bearing on their ability, obviously.
Thank you Wolter, for taking the time to consider Dolly and Mustardman’s viewpoints. I think it is interesting that my article has sparked this strain of debate. While I do not think that the romantic interactions between Western men and women are a topic that overly concerns me as a feminist, you all bring up some great points.
I think perhaps my post does not get across my point well enough, which is why the comment section has focused on this facet of society instead of a discussion about my greater point, which was that feminism is still relevant (for many reasons beyond the sexual objectification of women) and that women should not be afraid to speak out about their beliefs.
Honestly, to clarify my opinions for many of the male readers who have misinterpreted my post (and I’m not actually singling out any of the published commenters…there were many comments that did not make it past moderation because they contained overt personal attacks), here is what I think about relationships between men and women in Western cultures:
- When I say that women should not be sexually objectified, I mean that I have a problem with the violence & humiliation of women inherent in much of our pornography and I mean that eating disorders are a very pervasive problem amongst today’s young women, etc, etc, etc. I do not mean to suggest that every human being should find every person attractive. I admit that when it comes to selecting a mate, I’m pretty shallow. Though my prerequisites include intelligence and a good sense of humor, if the person isn’t attractive to me, I’m probably not going to pursue a relationship.
Please do not mistake my calls for tolerance of all body shapes as my attempt to dictate what individual people find attractive. What I find problematic is society’s skewed perception that the skinniest women are attractive, when attractiveness really should be a fluid concept that varies from person to person.
As a woman who has an “hourglass” shape, I have never had an issue attracting men. I am attractive, young, and “fertile”. That’s kind of my point. If someone like me, who is considered attractive by society’s standards, has issues about her size, then there might be a problem with the message society is telling us. I’m healthy, and there is no *logical* rationale for my body image issues…other than, of course, the systematic images in the media that create unattainable beauty ideals for all of us — women *and* men.
So, I’m just going to put this out there for everyone: Feminists are not just bitter old cat ladies who never found a man, but really wanted to…so they have become bitter or angry (P.S. There’s nothing wrong with an old cat lady as long as she’s happy!) Instead, feminism is a pervasive movement that still has a lot of relevance today. Just because I singled out my father, boyfriend, and uncle for their comments doesn’t mean I pester them every day about their occasional sexist comments. My dad and I are best friends, my boyfriend and I are much enamored with each other, and I love my uncle. If I didn’t get this across in my post, then I need to say it here: Feminism, while important to me, is not something I talk about 24/7. It’s not the definition of my person, but rather one ASPECT of my beliefs. I’m also passionate about separation of church and state, liberal democratic values, etc. This is my blog. I wanted to write a post about feminism. Enjoy it for what it is, and recognize that it’s just an anecdotal article that I wrote in a few hours. It was not meant to answer every question, and I am only one voice of many.
Thanks for everyone who has been participating respectfully in this discussion. To those of you whose comments I did not approve, I will approve your comments if you frame them in a respectful manner. You do not have to agree with me, but you must not personally attack me or other commenters.
Thanks for removing the “douchebag” epithet from your previous comment. It was quite insulting.
My apologies Wolter
dollface, I hope you don’t mind, but I posted a link to here from Shakesville. If it does bother you, please e-mail me and I’ll contact Melissa.
Can I write? I posted a link AT Shakesville TO this article… ugh, it’s annoying that there isn’t an edit comments section.
I apologize, I haven’t taken the time to read the comments, but I just wanted to say that this was a wonderful post. Based on your age at the time of 9/11 I’d say I’m just a couple of years older than you and DAMN I wish I could express myself that coherently.
This was beautiful. Thanks for writing.
(Got here from Shakesville.)
hi Dollface–I’m 54 and have been a feminist for all of my adult life, and have never been afraid to say it. I hear you. I understand your outrage–I was you. I want to let you know that there are many, many women and men who do not objectify women and who have much more evolved ideas than are apparent from the media and from drive-by comments made online. I also want you to know that real progress has been made and I can tell you stories about what it was like when I was your age, and it’s better in all ways. And I can tell you stories about my mother’s generation, and her mother’s generation, and furthermore, that feminism never went away and old feminists never say die.
I think telling stories about how we came to be feminist is really important; in fact, I’m doing the same thing with my podcast. Maybe you’d like to participate. I don’t spend energy defending feminism or explaining it to hostile people who really don’t want to understand. I have been influenced by many feminist writers, feminist artists, teachers of feminism, and just plain old strong, compassionate, generous women. They’ve all helped me understand what I was up against, and several feminist therapists have helped me heal. And my husband is my biggest fan whether I’m skinny or fat, stylish or sloppy. So, reach out to women who can support your growth, see your talents. Ignore people who do not have big hearts and/or open minds, and learn to trust & value your self…love to you…
@ Dolly — You can link to me at Shakesville anytime :)
@ llencelyn — Thank you so much. Honestly, after some of the comments I’ve received, I’d started to doubt this post. I’m glad you enjoyed it.
@ MadamaAmbi — Thanks for the comment. I’d definitely be interested in hearing your podcast. Your comment is pretty inspiring, and hearing from women such as yourself is why I enjoy writing this blog.
Evening,
From my female friends here in the UK there’s an overwhelming opinion which is conspiratorially whispered to me, that, actually, being a woman in today’s society is actually rather beneficial. I’m talking about incredibly clever women (who happen to be generally fit) who are going far in their chosen career, so we’re talking doctors, vets, engineers, physicists. Then there are political feminist friends who are still stuck in this mindset that they’re being oppressed, I really can’t see it anymore. Apart from politicians, I’ve met no radical feminist professionals so here comes the crux, you mention McKinnon & that’s terribly revealing, this is about power as you admit, but it’s now about power over men.
There are plenty of women who’ve achieved equality through their own hard work (I even had a girlfriend who hit me, I left that… wrong sort of equality I know), based on the foundations of 60′s feminism, they have been able to do this & now we don’t need this radical nonsense, as the problem isn’t radical, as it used to be. It really is the last bits of tidying up, that goes for all of us.
And Wurtzle? Crikey, that woman doesn’t stand for anything other than Elizabeth Wurtzle. Used to read that stuff when I was a tranny-kiddy (just keep it for special nights out these days).
Peace (& I mean that, that’s what we should be after, peace),
Nick,
@ Nick — You don’t see how women are oppressed? Well, considering you’re male, that’s not surprising. If all you have to report is that a few of your female friends are doing well in their careers, then I don’t really see how you can rightfully argue that there is no more need for *radical* feminism.
I do not want power over men, and neither does MacKinnon. Furthermore, who cares if Wurtzel only cares about herself, she writes amazing books and that’s all that matters. You think some male writers aren’t narcissistic? Does that make their literature any less compelling?
I’m sorry to hear you were in an abusive relationship, but that doesn’t really make your case against feminism any stronger.
You know, Nick’s “women friends” who think feminism is stupid aren’t all that unfamiliar. It seems like every time someone tries to defend a progressive movement, the opposing side appears with these “mysterious” friends who are able to prove the progressives’ wrong just by saying, “That’s not how it is.”
It’s like when Sarah Palin mysteriously had a “gay best friend” when she was defending her belief that gays shouldn’t get married and being gay was a choice.
It’s like when white people refer to their “black/Asian/etc. best friend” in order to tell POCs that white privilege/racism don’t exist.
And it’s like Nick telling us that he knows a bunch of women who don’t think sexism exists, therefore it doesn’t.
Even if Nick’s “friends” were real, they’re not right. 95-96% of rape today is commited by men against women. Men still control 2/3 of the world’s wealth. The majority of the world’s impoverished are women (particularly old women). 1/4 American college women is raped or sexually abused. The 10 highest paid women in this country are still, COMBINED, making less than the top highest paid man. You don’t think women are oppressed? Please.
And I’ll second dollface… I’m sorry if you “actually” were in an abusive relationship (but since we’re questioning the credibility of your friends, I’ll question the credibility of other things as well), but that doesn’t make your case against feminism any stronger.
For the most part, the confusion over feminism is largely due to the wide array of different, and sometimes even incompatible philosophies that are pandered under the umbrella of “feminism”.
There’s:
- the “all men are scum” feminism, and its related “don’t you DARE look at my body” feminism
- the “we’re totally powerless and woe is us” feminism
- the “we’re just along for the free ride” feminism
- the “we deserve the same respect and opportunities as men, and we’ll do what it takes to ensure that we have it” feminism (the good kind)
The man haters are, unfortunately, the most vocal, and so that is the stigma that feminism carries with it.
It bothers me that you “doubted your post” and so I’m coming back to address this. It has taken me decades to not care what other people think about what I do or say or write. If you are going to actualize your talents & your self, you have to develop teflon skin, especially around people you may threaten. I’m not recommending you discount thoughtful feedback, but to doubt the validity of a piece of writing that came from your gut (and you know it’s your truth) because other people didn’t like it or had strong reactions to it is a recipe for a miserable life. Oh, I could teach a whole course on this…it pains me to hear you say you doubted your post, Dollface, because I’ve been there, and there are times when I’m still whacking those demons away from my consciousness!!
I would like to interview both you and Harlequin for ROADTRIP: How I Got Feminist–I think we could have a very useful discussion. Go to my blog for Feminist Advisory Board and then click on the link for Facebook group.
Wolter, you clearly no shit about feminism. Why don’t you troll somewhere else and stop harassing dollface?
bell hooks has clearly defined feminism:
“A struggle against sexist oppression”
If you want to refer to the different divisions of feminism you refer to the “multicultural” feminists, the “liberal” feminists, the “radical” feminists, the “third wave” feminists, the “postcolonial” feminists, the “transnational” feminists, the “Womanists,” the Chicana feministas, the “Marxist” feminists, etc… there isn’t a special kind of man-hating feminist. You made that up based on your own stereotypes. If there’s any confusion about feminism, it’s because uneducated assholes like you rely on your imagination to create a false definition of feminism.
> Wolter, you clearly no shit about feminism. Why don’t you troll somewhere else and stop harassing dollface?
Huh?
I’m not harassing dollface. At least I don’t think I am…
> “A struggle against sexist oppression”
Sounds good to me.
> If there’s any confusion about feminism, it’s because uneducated assholes like you rely on your imagination to create a false definition of feminism.
That’s a little abusive, don’t you think?
All I was saying is that you get a few crazy “man haters” who spoil it for everyone, and that is what people tend to remember the most, unfortunately.
If you think I’m commenting on anyone who posts to this blog, you are very mistaken. Though you do have a tendency to fly off the handle.
The classifications were indeed of my own construction, based on a number of women I have observed to use the word “feminism” to excuse the fact that they are such assholes.
Yes, you are harassing dollface. She wrote a post from the heart about why she is a feminist, and every thing you’ve commented on here has been an attempt to invalidate her experiences or to shit on her belief in feminism.
“If you think I’m commenting on anyone who posts to this blog, you are very mistaken. Though you do have a tendency to fly off the handle.”
lol, Walter you are such a fucking douchebag. If you think I’m one of those crazy man-haters why don’t you stop being a sly asshole about it and come out and say it? Every time you post some overgeneralized comment here, whether it’s about what *you* think feminism is based on a couple people you’ve met or how you think evolution explains away all dollface’s body image issues, I’ve come back and given you a reasonable response. If you think that means I’m some hysterical, fly-off-the-handle misandryist, then you’ve got a lot to learn.
Oh, and by the way, I love your sexist use of the phrase “Fly off the handle.” Very charming. Is that how you characterize all women who don’t just submit to you and your views? This is NOT your space. It is a feminst space, and so don’t expect to go unchallenged. You seriously need to examine your male privilege. You are stereotyping, and you need to own up instead of moving the goal posts every time I come back and respond to you.
> every thing you’ve commented on here has been an attempt to invalidate her experiences or to shit on her belief in feminism.
Most definitely not! Her feelings and beliefs are indeed valid. I don’t know where you got the idea that I’m trying to invalidate them.
> lol, Walter you are such a fucking douchebag. If you think I’m one of those crazy man-haters why don’t you stop being a sly asshole about it and come out and say it?
You certainly are abusive, I’ll give you that.
> Every time you post some overgeneralized comment here, whether it’s about what *you* think feminism is based on a couple people you’ve met or how you think evolution explains away all dollface’s body image issues
Whoa! Hold up! Where the hell did this come up? Isn’t this a discussion forum? Why are you shitting over everything I say? Is it really so hard to be respectful?
> If you think that means I’m some hysterical, fly-off-the-handle misandryist, then you’ve got a lot to learn.
Well I didn’t think so before, but now I’m starting to wonder…
> Oh, and by the way, I love your sexist use of the phrase “Fly off the handle.”
In what way is this sexist?
> Is that how you characterize all women who don’t just submit to you and your views?
Huh? Where the hell did you get that idea?
> This is NOT your space.
OMG sorry for trespassing. What I’m hearing from you is that deviating views will not be tolerated.
> It is a feminst space, and so don’t expect to go unchallenged.
I don’t mind being challenged, so long as it’s done in a respectful manner.
> You seriously need to examine your male privilege.
Why? You said yourself that this is not my space. Where is my privilege here?
> You are stereotyping, and you need to own up instead of moving the goal posts every time I come back and respond to you.
How am I moving goal posts? I don’t even know where they are!
Wolter. You. Don’t. Get. It.
And you’re playing innocent and passive-aggressive is what’s really abusive. And that’s why you’re a fucking douchebag.
You started commenting here on the presumptuous, sexist notion that dollface doesn’t already know about evolution/science because she’s a woman. You were condescending in trying to explain it to her, and by not even supporting her in her feelings you implied that her upset at being objectified was unreasoned.
Then, when I called you out on it, you came back, acting like you had said nothing wrong.
Then, you were obnoxious enough to leave us an entire list of what “feminisms” you think you are and how it confuses everyone (even though you’re really the one whose confused).
I called you on that and had to explain basic FEM 101 to you. Then, you act like you’ve said nothing wrong again.
You’re acting dumb and stupid to come off innocent, but YOU are the one moving the goal posts. It’s you who doesn’t understand feminism.
And it’s you who doesn’t even understand what the basic feminist definition of male privilege is. Why the fuck would you think male privilege disappears when posting on the Internet? Do you even acknowledge male privilege exists? Why don’t you go read Finally, A Feminism 101 blog before posting here again. Certainly, dollface welcomes opposing viewpoints and it’s her decision where to the draw the line… but you have been such an asshole, and I won’t let her heartfelt essay go undefended.
And the whole abusive thing? lol… is that some attempt to make a connection between the actual abuse women face in their everyday lives to make yourself look like a victim? You’re pathetic. This is a feminist blog, and you’re in the midst of a feminist discussion without a fucking clue.
The most delicious part of your entire comment:
“Well I didn’t think so before, but now I’m starting to wonder…”
And now we know why Wolter thinks there are man-hating feminists and those that go along for the ride. Because the fact that I love my father and my first two feminist professors were men and some of my closest friends are males combined with the fact that I’m a passionate feminist must mean I’m a man-hater. Great logic, Wolter!
> You started commenting here on the presumptuous, sexist notion that dollface doesn’t already know about evolution/science because she’s a woman.
Umm.. no. That’s you reading things into it that aren’t there.
> You were condescending in trying to explain it to her
I didn’t think it was condescending.
> and by not even supporting her in her feelings
I’m not sure what you mean here… she’s already said her feelings. why do I need to say more about them?
> Then, when I called you out on it, you came back, acting like you had said nothing wrong.
I still don’t understand why you think I’ve said something wrong.
> Then, you were obnoxious enough to leave us an entire list of what “feminisms” you think you are and how it confuses everyone
Sorry if I offended you. I was just thinking on my feet. I didn’t know there was an official list of feminisms.
> I called you on that and had to explain basic FEM 101 to you. Then, you act like you’ve said nothing wrong again.
And I still don’t see what I’ve done wrong.
> You’re acting dumb and stupid to come off innocent
No, I’m completely confused. I really don’t understand why you are upset.
> And it’s you who doesn’t even understand what the basic feminist definition of male privilege is.
Evidently not.
> Why the fuck would you think male privilege disappears when posting on the Internet?
So you continue giving me male privilege on a feminist blog?
… seriously, I’m getting really confused here.
> Do you even acknowledge male privilege exists?
“Male privilege is a term used to describe the idea that there are unearned rights and statuses granted to the male population in society on the basis of their biological sex that the female population is usually denied.”
Sounds about right to me.
> but you have been such an asshole, and I won’t let her heartfelt essay go undefended.
Again with the name calling. And I still don’t know why you’re mad.
> Because the fact that I love my father and my first two feminist professors were men and some of my closest friends are males combined with the fact that I’m a passionate feminist must mean I’m a man-hater. Great logic, Wolter!
How can that be my logic if this is the first time you’ve even mentioned your father and professors and friends?
I judge hate by words, and your words are very hateful.
@ Madamambi — I’d love to take part in your Roadtrip series! I’ll also take a look at your blog.
“If you are going to actualize your talents & your self, you have to develop teflon skin, especially around people you may threaten. I’m not recommending you discount thoughtful feedback, but to doubt the validity of a piece of writing that came from your gut (and you know it’s your truth) because other people didn’t like it or had strong reactions to it is a recipe for a miserable life.”
Great words of wisdom. Thanks.
—–
@ Wolter, it’s great that you are taking this much time to participate in a discussion (or debate) with Dolly. However, perhaps you’d like to offer Dolly your email address so, if she chooses, this conversation can continue in a different space. In terms of this blog post, I think you’ve made your point. Dolly is right — this is a pro-feminist space, and while there is ample room to disagree or offer differing viewpoints, this particular discussion has become unproductive. I offer my sincere thanks to you both for your passionate comments.
Thanks, Dollface. If I did sound condescending, that was not my intent.
Very interesting read.
Perhaps women are more attractive than men overall (sounds like something MY boyfriend would say). Of course that doesn’t make the results of that right. Can’t people communicate that they think someone is attractive without objectifying them?
I admitted today that some of the ways in which culture is more harmful toward women than men is because of women. Though part of this might be because, especially before 18, we tend to talk to girls more than boys so girls have more chance to make us conform. It’s the women in my life who comment on weight, leg-shaving, acne etc. Of course they have been convinced to conform by other women in their life and haven’t had a chance to question beauty standards.
Oh, in the media, being thin all over seems the ideal nowadays, not big hips.
I have a hard time explaining why feminism is still needed to my boyfriend because aside from the violence and the double shift and eating disorders, well, he keeps asking how I experience sexism in MY life and when he asks, I can never think of very much that has affected me personally. Of course a lot of sexism isn’t blatantly visible but for some reason women are in fewer positions of power. Generally, he does acknowledge that it’s needed but wants to blame the media and church. And well, media does show a skewed reality of mostly skinny women. And recently I looked at the website of my friend’s church and it talked about women submitting to men which made me mad. But media and church are not going away so we have to teach people to be better at criticizing the media I suppose.
And teaching students about feminism could help…I have a friend from uni who in first year said some predictable words about feminism and then for an English class she had to read about feminist critique and now I’ve heard her say she’s a feminist…kinda.
So yeah, this got off topic.
[...] Why I Became a Feminist, Pt. 2 (Rotten Little Girls) "I do believe there is a time and place to speak out for the feminist cause. When someone makes a misogynist joke, you don’t have to stay silent. When someone makes a disparaging comment about a woman’s appearance, you don’t have to pretend you didn’t hear. Why should we stay silent when we have been silenced for centuries? Even if you don’t call yourself a feminist, if you believe women deserve equal rights, equal opportunity, the right to self-determination and freedom from discrimination, guess what? You’re a feminist. So why deny that fact? Is it because feminists are 'angry', 'stubborn', and 'aggressive'? Or is it because you know that feminists are actually passionate, opinionated and outspoken, but because of their gender are labeled 'angry', 'stubborn', and so on?" Just don't read the comments; the typical MRA idiots showed up, naturally. Bless this blogger's heart for trying to engage, but that's what the Ban button is for. (tags: feminism culture sexism women society) [...]
Nice read, good comments ;)
[...] I wasn’t really very aware of the actual movement until recently. I discussed this in my post, “Why I Became a Feminist,” and to be sure I still have a lot to learn about feminism and what issues are most important to [...]
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Very well stated. I’m a breast cancer survivor who has not had reconstruction and 95 percent of the time I wear prosthetics not for myself but to help other people feel more comfortable. Someday I hope to speak as strongly as you and maybe ditch the suckers. Keep up the good writing.
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dollface, fillyjonk of Shapely Prose wrote an awesome post about how women’s bodies maybe considered “more beautiful” because they have been artistically used to symbolize everything good and bad with society. In short, they’ve become the property of the public (cough, men, cough) to project their abstract visions on. I think, to me, it explains why so many hetero men say, “but, but, but women’s bodies are just nicer!”
http://kateharding.net/2009/06/25/allegorical-figures/#comments
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